In “ The Words of My Perfect Teacher” , Patrul Rinpoche describes three types of lying, a verbal action to be avoided. Ordinary lies are those that are made with the intention of deceiving others with false speech. Major lies are those that have “the most devastatingly misleading consequences” – lies about the Dharma. An example would be telling someone that karma doesn’t matter, because it’s all empty anyways. Phoney lama’s lies are those concerning having made attainments or abilities and qualities which one does not have. This speaks to the importance of thorough and proper examination of a spiritual friend.
Ordinary lies may be one of the most common negative actions. The usual motivation behind false speech is to deceive others in order to protect our own interests. Perhaps we exaggerate the facts when talking to someone, hoping to be impressive. Or we might not say what we really think about a subject, to avoid disagreement, criticism, or our own discomfort. We may be avoiding the consequences of telling the truth.
But what about when the motivation behind a lie is to benefit others? The intention behind this sort of a lie is still deception, but the motivation could be considered virtuous. In the Lotus Sutra, there is a story of a man who lies to his children to get them to come out of a burning house. He chooses this course of action because the children are playing intently and have disregarded his warning. Surely this is an example of justified false speech?
Skillful means comes to mind when considering the story of the burning house. The one who lied was in a position of greater knowledge, who purposefully took this action for the benefit of others. Additionally, the truth was told once the danger had passed. One might consider this a selfless act, accumulating the negative karma oneself, in order to benefit other beings. On the other hand, this rationalization could be used to justify quite a bit of untruths! Careful self examination, examination of the circumstances, and setting a proper intention are undoubtedly essential. What do you think about lies told to benefit others?
By practicing being truthful to others, being false with yourself becomes difficult. Honesty allows us to become more genuine, more open, more peaceful, which benefits everyone!
#1 by Yontan on July 28, 2010 - 5:48 PM
Quote
Shoot yeah. If it benefits others, lie your teeth off. There may be consequences to oneself, but there are more important things than “never lying.” Trouble is discerning when that is the case!
#2 by Evan Bishop on July 29, 2010 - 5:27 AM
Quote
“The one who lied was in a position of greater knowledge, who purposefully took this action for the benefit of others.”
Mindfulness and Discernment! I think that we must try our best to develop these qualities for the benefit of others, and if in a certain situation lying is the most skillful means to bring benefits to that being then we should take on the negative karma from lying in order to repay back our mothers kindness…Mindfulness will really help keep our motivation pure!
#3 by Yontan on July 29, 2010 - 10:50 AM
Quote
“By practicing being truthful to others, being false with yourself becomes difficult.”
This is so very true, isn’t it? When I say something false, it’s like a bad taste in the back of my throat. The physical sensation is the same if I’m being untrue to someone else or myself, and so the more familiar I become with that taste the easier it is to catch it internally, when I’m by myself. Lying (except for the sort that is motivated by expedient compassion) seems to be tied with fear: fear of something happening you cannot deal with, fear of being found out to be something you don’t like, fear of not getting away with something you think you need…. It takes a lot of courage to be honest all the time. More courage than I’ve been able to find yet, but that taste each time it comes up, gives me yet another chance to challenge the environment and my awareness, to not be scared of what is, to swallow samsara as my own actual lived situation, to dare to find out what if.
That taste is actually a blessing, a wake-up call, the dakinis smiling down awaiting a response.
Tastes like chicken.
#4 by Clotilde Wright on July 29, 2010 - 4:24 PM
Quote
“We might not say what we really think about a subject, to avoid disagreement, criticism, or our own discomfort.” This area of truth telling can be tricky and I’m interested in hearing how others deal with it.
Rinpoche said that we should be truthful but at the same time, should not say everything that we think. Some things should be kept hidden dependent on the situation. For example, if I’m honest about telling another person about a character flaw I observe in them, I could harm them. (this is a more obvious example) But, what about the more subtle things that we say that are “true” that could be hurtful? Should we care about this? I guess this relates to Right Speech.
But, like Yontan pointed out, keeping too much in side is a reaction to fear. Fear of how others will react or perceive us. And can prevent us from really opening up to others.
#5 by Yontan on July 29, 2010 - 5:04 PM
Quote
In the Maggavibhanga Sutta Buddha lists four things characterizable as “incorrect speech” (musāvāda veramaṇī), of which lying is but one along with idle chatter, divisiveness and harsh speech.
For us these ten precepts have to be seen through the lens of the bodhisattva vow. I don’t find it helpful to get too wrapped up in whether a particular thing I say is “a lie” or not, but just whether I’m coming from a place of trying to help others or not. Generally, it’s more helpful to stick with what is really going on (i.e., “the truth”) so it works out. Our upbringing lends to a bit of anxiety about “doing wrong” when we really can’t help but do mountains of “wrong” every moment we’re lost in conceptual dualistic living. “According to capabilities” is the thing to remember.
Here is a helpful website about right speech, which is the opposite of “incorrect speech.”
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dhamma/sacca/sacca4/samma-vaca/index.html
I like this part:
“Monks, a statement endowed with five factors is well-spoken, not ill-spoken. It is blameless & unfaulted by knowledgeable people. Which five? It is spoken at the right time. It is spoken in truth. It is spoken affectionately. It is spoken beneficially. It is spoken with a mind of good-will.”
#6 by Clotilde Wright on July 29, 2010 - 6:13 PM
Quote
These five factors are definitely worth contemplating and trying to put into practice. I’m humbled when I think of how often my speech is motivated by self preservation, or trying to reinforce the self vs. being other focused.
And how often is the “mind of good will” present when trying to get a point across? Often, I’m irritated at the person or their is some kind of desire for domination going on. I guess its importance to notice these tendencies as they arise.
I think it can be particularly hard in a culture where asserting the self, or dominating others is valued. You can feel like if you don’t say it loud, you won’t be heard.
#7 by SarahJ on July 29, 2010 - 7:22 PM
Quote
As people-pleaser extraordinaire, I have to watch myself, otherwise I am chock full of “small” lies. The exaggeration, and perhaps even more, the difficulty in saying what I really think when it’s quite different from anothers opinion. Not necessarily an out and out lie, but the appearance of my agreement with whatever is being said, and when asked, a weak or ambiguous response , kind of a cop-out!
I was also thinking about when someone asks me to tell them the truth about something that would likely be hurtful to them, such as “ I noticed that my patient that you covered on my vacation is still on your schedule. Was something wrong?”. Let’s suppose the patient felt that the other therapist was too rough during treatment, and so asked to stay on my schedule. Previously, I might have said something like “Oh, no, their schedule just fit with my hours a little better.” And my thought was that I was saving the other therapist from feeling criticized or badly, and that of course different patients will prefer to be handled differently – you can’t please everyone. However, upon further reflection, I see that what’s really happening is I am avoiding feeling uncomfortable should the other therapist be upset, and perhaps more importantly, depriving the therapist of all the information they need to make decisions. The therapist may or may not decide to make changes in the way they approach certain patients.
I am working onself examination before speaking, and gradually trying out different ways to handle situations outside of my “comfort zone”, instead of the same old reflexive response. When I have been completely honest, with a proper intention and skillful choice of words and timing, the response of the other person isn’t whatever I thought it would be anyways.
Another thought, is that is IS ok to say” I don’t think I should talk about that.” or something similar. I sometimes feel compelled to answer honestly, when perhaps it’s better to say nothing at all…
I had written down in my notes from one of Rinpoche’s teachings “If you have the motivation of prejudice, then shut up.” , I don’t know if those were his exact words, but I can hear that in my head sometimes…
#8 by Clotilde Wright on July 29, 2010 - 9:55 PM
Quote
Yes, sometimes trying to “protect” other peoples feelings by being “dishonest” winds up causing more harm then good. It takes a lot of bravery to be honest.
#9 by Angela Tsultrim on July 30, 2010 - 8:43 PM
Quote
I don’t think it is all that beneficial to tell another person their flaws unless you’ve conciously taken them on as a student or your in a direct, live-in, friend/lovers relationship and even then I think one should start with the subtle and work up to blunt. I think our own natural interactions with each other will naturally show us our flaws. I was at a retreat once and it seemed alot of us were not getting along very well and one of the Lama’s reminded us of what one of his Lama’s said (who happened to be Chagdud Rinpoche), “put a bunch of Buddha’s in a bag and shake ‘em up, your bound to clank with each other.” I think that clanking is a good opportunity to look at our own flaws, as honestly as we can. Then I apprectiate that flaw alittle bit because it helps me pull in the strings of my arrogance and remember we are all in this together.
I also think it is okay to lie sometimes. Like when you call in sick and your not really sick but you know if you do not take a day off your going to get sick, and we’re talking like, you’ve gotten to the point of complete exhaustion and you really need a day off to just go to the mountains or you’ll get the flu or a migraine. You can’t really call in healthy if you want a day off, you’ll get fired, and you can’t really call in “pre-sick,” or you’ll still get fired. In this superly-overstructred, consumeristic world, sometimes you have to lie alittle bit to stay well. Sorry guys, I’ve done this. So, yeah, I think it is okay to lie to help out other sentient beings, including yourself sometimes. I suppose as long as it does not become a serious habit.
#10 by Yontan on August 2, 2010 - 12:41 PM
Quote
Anyone read this guy’s book?
http://radicalhonesty.com/
#11 by Yontan on August 2, 2010 - 12:54 PM
Quote
Susan Campbell’s “Getting Real” is headed my way via ILL. Looks good. She also has a new book, “Saying What’s Real” that also deals with effective, sensitive, authentic communication. (I think I could use a little more of that.)
#12 by Chris Lemig on August 3, 2010 - 9:53 AM
Quote
“By practicing being truthful to others, being false with yourself becomes difficult.” Actually, I think this statement is a little backwards. I don’t think we can even begin to be truthful with others until we have learned how to be completely open and honest with ourselves. We have to know who we are, what we believe, what our faults and shortcomings are before we can begin telling others the truth.
As far as lying to benefit others goes, again I think this all comes down to how honest we are with ourselves. What is my true motivation when I lie to benefit others? Am I just rationalizing my own fear of the truth? And what about those pesky “people pleasing lies”? Boy, do I sure still tell my share of those! When I look closely I have to ask: am I really interested in pleasing people or am I only trying to protect myself?
#13 by Yontan on August 3, 2010 - 12:11 PM
Quote
Interesting comment, Chris. I suppose at heart, honesty is honesty and dishonesty is dishonesty, but for myself I find it much easier to notice the thought in my head: “You’re lying to him/her” than the thought: “You’re lying to yourself.” By nature, lying to yourself is keeping something from yourself, but when lying to others we are fully conscious – to an extent – of what we are doing. In that way it seems easier for me to start with being honest with others. The path of being “completely open and honest with ourselves” seem to be a fairly substantial journey, but we can start right here with each untruth (or more precisely, “wrong speech”) that we notice, whether it’s aimed at our own self or at others.
#14 by Chris Lemig on August 4, 2010 - 8:39 AM
Quote
Sorry, I shouldn’t have tried to turn this into some kind of axiom that’s true for everyone. I think this is a matter of what works best for each of us. It does make sense that one would start with external truth telling as a kind of preparation for the inner journey of honesty and that the two actually support one another. I was speaking from my experience as a drug addict and alcoholic, where I was pretty much in the business of telling myself lies every minute of every day. It wasn’t until I could face those lies and really see how damaging they were that I was able to stop (as a continous, reflexive habit anyway) lying to others.
By the way, I am so glad that I finally got off my behind and started to follow along with these discussions. Thank you everyone for all of your insights, courage and honesty. It is really wonderful to be a part of all of this!